Can you transition into the pharmaceutical or biotech industry right after fellowship or residency training? Aspiring to be a senior pharmaceutical leader, CMO, or Board Director?
In this episode of The Career Rx we’ll discuss:
- Taking a job in industry immediately after fellowship
- The importance of gaining diverse experience for career advancement
- Insights into the unique challenges of the startup world
Listen to this interview with Dr. Nerissa Kreher, a pediatric endocrinologist turned industry veteran. Dr. Kreher shares her journey into the pharmaceutical and biotech world, and her path up the ladder – including her roles as a CMO and her current board service.
In this Episode:
- How Dr. Kreher got started in pharma immediately after fellowship
- The career path that prepared her to be Chief Medical Officer
- Pros and cons of big pharma vs startups and biotech
- Nerissa’s thoughts on the biggest pharma job myth
Links and Resources:
Industry Insider – 12 hours of CME, learn exactly how to land a rewarding nonclinical career without a new degree, special connections, prior experience, or a pay cut
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TRANSCRIPT: Episode 126 – Interview with an Industry CMO: Guest Nerissa Kreher
So today on the show, I’m very, very excited to welcome my special guest, DR. NERISSA Kreher, who is a pediatric endocrinologist by training and is an industry veteran in the pharmaceutical and biotech industry having been a former CMO for several tech companies.
Today serves on the board of directors for resolute bio, and is also the founder of industry MD coach. Welcome to the program. Nerissa thank you for being here.
Oh, thanks for having me.
It’s so great to have you on the show. Because I always do, of course love to interview people who have done things outside of clinical medicine. And you know, my audience is very interested, especially in industry careers. But I think of all of the guests I’ve had you are perhaps the most experienced because you’ve been in industry really, almost immediately since training. Is that right?
That’s correct. I transitioned one year after finishing my fellowship.
Yeah, that’s fantastic. I can’t wait to hear about what that was like for you. Because one of the things that I hear so often from people who are interested in pursuing careers in industry, is they’re not sure whether they can do that immediately or do they have to have a certain number of years of experience under their belt.
And some of course you are interested in, in making transitions even in med school or in residency before they’ve even finished. So you might be able to lend some unique perspective there and then also to be able to share with us your nearly 20 years of experience in the industry.
So you’re such a fantastic guest to have. Tell me what that was like, Well, how did you decide or how did industry catch your attention in the first place?
Yeah, so you know, one of the tenants of this transition is networking, and it really was my network that led me to an industry role. I wasn’t looking for an industry role. I was planning on a clinical research career in academics. I had gotten a master’s in clinical research during my fellowship and had actually done some, you know, significant clinical research during fellowship. And unfortunately, the position that we thought was waiting for me was not when it was time to move to Austin area.
Yeah. So, you know, young physicians, like sort of just starting my academic career and things got a bit turned upside down. But actually looking back on it. I mean, it’s such a fortuitous change, because I’ve had just an amazing career in the industry and something that I might not have been able to do. Yeah. So you know, going back to the networking piece, when I found out that the academic role was not available.
This was an issue of budget cuts. A sales representative from a company that manufactured and marketed recombinant human growth hormone, which of course has been no I worked very closely with. She asked if I would share my resume with her so she could share it with her company. And that is actually handed me my role in medical affairs supporting that growth hormone.
That’s fantastic. I you know, that’s one of the things I recommend to people all the time because they’ll say there’s no jobs in industry for people in my specialty, whatever specialty that is. And I think if you just look around your workplace, right, the medicines, the equipment, the devices, the tech, all the things that you work with every day. Those are jobs in your specialty, just right there.
So a sales rep that’s a really fantastic connection. Did you have any concerns about taking that type of job without having you know, since you had a pre conceived path, right, you knew you wanted to do academic research? Did you have any sort of any doubts in in transitioning to industry and wondered if that was closing? A door? I hear that concern a lot, sir.
Yeah. I mean, doubts, no, not doubts, but certainly, you know, impostor syndrome and, and all the things that you would say, well, you’re only one year out of fellowship, how can you take a role in industry? But, you know, once I transitioned, I honestly never looked back. I did though, know that if this didn’t work out.
Yeah. I go back after a certain period of time. So I’m just not a big believer in doors being closed. I think that yes, they might be harder to open but I think there is a point after you’ve been in industry for a certain period of time that it would be difficult to go back, right. Yep. But a couple of years. I don’t think so. And if you keep your board certification up, if you keep your license up, you know, that keeps opportunities open.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it depends a bit on specialty too, I suppose. specialties interventional specialties, you may need to do a reentry program to just get your hands back in the game right but, but the doors never closed. I love that.
So you started in in medical affairs, right and then and then you also moved across some of the functions and did some clinical development. Is that right? Correct. Yes. And then well, tell us a little bit about that. You know, you worked in a few different functions.
Obviously at a certain point you had the depth and breadth to become a chief medical officer. So maybe tell us a little bit about that mid-career exploration that you did.
Sure. And I will say I’m a little different as a chief medical officer because of that medical affairs background. So the Medical Affairs role I first took I actually was still doing true clinical research because I was in charge of a phase four study.
So you know, that’s something for people to understand that different companies Medical Affairs, may be more or less involved in research in various ways. So I always had that opportunity.
From the get go even though it was a medical affairs role. But I didn’t know that to be a chief medical officer, I really had to have that true clinical development role where I was involved in all phases of clinical research. So after the first role, I transitioned and this was a great opportunity. It was a hybrid role, actually, which they don’t exist that often.
This just happened to be available. It was part clinical research and part Medical Affairs so they needed someone to support us Medical Affairs, but they also needed someone to support clan Dev. And my hiring manager was a VP of Clinical Research. So this allowed me to be mentored by someone who had grown up in clinical development in the industry.
I saw that a real opportunity to you know, have that as a title, and also get that true mentorship. So I won’t take you through all the roles I’ve if you look at my profile, I’ve moved around a lot in the startup space. And in small companies.
One of the things about small companies is regardless of title, you know, you can raise your hand and be able to take on a project that might be more clinical research, even if your title is medical affairs or vice versa.
I’ll just give you an example of one of those where I joined a company in a VP role to start a medical affairs function. And it turned out that over the two and a half or so years, I was there I actually did much more work in the clinical development function. So I went to phase three European study.
I ultimately led the charge around a clinical hold issue, which was much more clinical development focused. Yeah. So you know, it is something that you have to look for those opportunities, and you have to let people know that it’s something that you’re open to and you want those additional exposures.
Yeah, absolutely. That’s so important. And I think when you’re when you’re sort of early to mid-career in industry, there’s an opportunity right to move laterally and to get experience in a lot of different functions. And at a certain point, if you become too senior, it’s not impossible to do it, but it may require a step back if you want to get some of that breadth and then you’re just talking about a different trajectory.
If your entire career has been in safety or your entire career has been in medical affairs, you’re probably a lot less likely to end up as a CMO and more likely to just head up be the head of that function.
Totally agree with that? Yes. I mean, you know, chief medical officer, you have to have a good amount of exposure to clinical development, maybe not every single phase, you know, some companies maybe you don’t have to have early phase one experience, but to really be a chief medical officer, that clinical development title and experience is necessary.
Yeah, that’s what people are looking for. Tell me about your MBA. I know you have one. When in your career did you get one and why? And what is it what is it done for you?
Yeah, MBA, this is always a question we get on the different forums. Right. So what I would start by saying is I again, mentorship so important, another hiring manager who also was an MD and had gotten his MBA, really encouraged me to do that. And I had the opportunity for the company to pay for my MBA.
I think the important I don’t typically recommend that people go get any additional degrees, right? Yeah. But in this situation, the company was going to pay for my entire MBA. My manager was very supportive of it. So ultimately, the real reason I got it was, I was frankly tired of some of the commercial and business functions saying things like, well, you’re an MD, an MD, you don’t understand business.
Oh, okay. Getting an MBA gave me that formal exposure to quote unquote, business right. And I do think it was helpful ultimately I don’t think it’s necessary. But it was helpful for me now that you know, I’ve moved up in the ranks, being able to understand the financial statements, being able to understand the terminology, I think was helpful, but again, I want to stress it’s not necessary.
Yeah. I think of it in other things where, as you mentioned, when you’re already doing the work, it’s something that can perhaps elevate you and expand some of your knowledge and understanding. But I don’t think it’s anything that’s a differentiator, right? It’s not gonna get you hired into Pharma. I mean, not at all right. So lately, I totally agree with that.
Yeah. Tell me a little bit if you can about so you’ve been in a good number of companies. I guess. I don’t know all that much about them. Tell me a little bit about your experience in terms of what you found.
To be differences in different companies of different sizes or maybe different ages, if you will, like the level of the maturity or the tenure of the company as an organization. Sure.
So I started my career and in a larger, not a Pfizer or Novartis large but a large pharma company, you know, global multinational company, and Genzyme, which has now been acquired, but that also was a large company, multinational and then had an opportunity to move to a private startup company that there were, I think, 12 or 13 of us. So, you know, from 1000s of people to just a handful of people.
And so that was my first experience in private startup. And I really love that from the beginning. And that was the first taste of that private startup world really building and growing something. That company was acquired just a year after I joined and it was acquired by a bigger biotech company again, you know, global with marketed products.
And that was a nice comparison. To be able to say, Okay, I’ve gone back to this bigger company, what do I like, what don’t I like? And that was really the ability for me to be able to say I really want to spend my career in startup. So with the exception of one other company, that’s really where the rest of my career has been focused.
So you know, a couple of the CMO roles I’ve had I joined the company when the company was private was involved in the IPO or initial public offering, which is when we take companies public, so I’ve been through that whole process. That’s not something for all physicians, but I do enjoy that part of the Chief Medical Officer role and being in the thick of the negotiations and the business aspect of it.
So you know, small versus large for an actual physician type role, whether it’s clinical development or medical affairs, or pharmacovigilance. I think in the larger companies your role is much more defined because they’re five or 10 or 20 other people doing other roles that so they’re more lanes of what your actual responsibilities are.
Whereas in a smaller company, there aren’t that many people and so, what you can be exposed to what you can take on as responsibility is wider. I do typically recommend to people with the exception of a few maybe specific specialties or people that are maybe thought leaders I think starting in a larger company is typically the best bet because you get a more formal training around how things are really done.
Yes. Smaller companies, you just don’t always have that. Not that they’re not done correctly, or in a compliant way of course, but it’s just more formal in a larger company. And larger company, there’s a phone around every corner right there.
There are so many people as you said right doing essentially the same function as you may be working on a different project or different asset. But where you can figure out not only how is this done in the industry, but how is it done at my company, and there’s a very clear path for how that is between the trainings and the SOPs and your colleagues. Whereas if it’s just you and 11 other people and there’s not overlap of your responsibilities, you’d have to navigate that largely on your own or by already knowing a bit about industry and being knowing the resources to go to further your own knowledge and in the space that’s new for you, right absolutely.
I mean, I think what you’re raising is really important, right? And if you start your career in a larger company, you’re building your experience. You’re building your network, and so if you choose to go to a smaller you’re sure you can still rely on that network.
But if you’ve gone into a smaller company, right off the bat, you haven’t had the opportunity to have that training or importantly, build that network. So you know, and also, I think, just realistically your opportunities when you’re transitioning into pharma are better in a larger company, because they’re hiring more roles.
If I’m hiring in a small company, one medical director, and that’s my resource that I get for the year. I’m much more likely to want someone that has some experience because I may not have the time or resource to actually mentor and train them. I need someone who can walk in with some experience.
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that’s the downside there is you really, you do need somebody who has experienced who can hit the ground running and can make those contributions just right away. That’s a really tough place to be for a first role.
For sure. And when you’re in a smaller company, and it says you’d spent a lot of your career in smaller companies, but you have an extensive network, what are some of the ways in which you’ve built your network, perhaps outside of the walls of your actual company?
I know before we started recording for this, we were talking about some of your hiking and traveling adventures that you’re doing. I kind of view that as a little bit of a network. What else would you recommend?
Oh, yes, totally. So I’m very involved in a group called Women In Bio. And they also have an executive group. You know, so groups like that, I think are really important. Networking at conferences and congresses, so even if it’s quote unquote, competition at a congress, it’s, it’s totally okay to get to know your colleagues at a different company.
And so, you need to put yourself out there and circulate in organizations that you know, another one would be bio, for example, but just being engaged in what’s happening in our industry trainings, see are put on trainings. It’s really an important part of building out your network.
Yeah. And you have to be deliberate about it. So even in big companies, I think you have to be deliberate about it, especially in the sort of more virtual world that we have.
Now. I mean, a lot of people are very, a lot of companies have gone back to a primarily in office presence for some functions, but I think even within a big company it can be really easy to kind of sucked into your immediate work and not really build your relationships across and outside, which is ultra important.
Absolutely. I mean, as you mentioned earlier, you know, being able to ask someone that’s working on a different program, how are you all doing this in your program within the same company? So doing things like just taking time to have a coffee with someone or actually leave your desk and have lunch with someone, I think are very important pieces. of building out your network.
Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I wanted to ask you about because as I think about the excitement of being one of just you know, a few handful of people in a startup, getting to really create and steer and like and, you know, due because you’re so accountable for it with there’s not a whole lot of redundancy there. But also, your it’s all on you, right?
I mean, I wonder if there’s a huge amount of either pressure or, or like how are you? I mean, you’re only a one person show, but there’s still the whole amount of done, how do you manage that or prioritize that? Or does it just look different? It would just success just look a little different in that kind of organization?
Yes. That’s a great question. So although the actual FTE is may be smaller, you know, we rely more on CROs for example, or consultant so maybe I’ll use safety as an example. Maybe we don’t have enough work for a full time safety person, but we still need someone to support safety, for example, and so I might bring in a consultant who’s working part time.
So although you’re ultimately sort of as an FTE of one and responsible you have to bring in people to support the work that you’re doing. I mean, the other piece is, certainly there’s still a lot but maybe not as many clinical trials for example.
So you know, when you’re in a startup the resources are more limited. Maybe you’re starting with one phase two trial, and it’s much more gated from the standpoint of, let’s prove that we’ve got a product here before we start investing significantly.
And so a lot of different trade offs in the decision making that not to say big pharma doesn’t have to do those as well. But there’s more leeway and Big Pharma whereas we just have to be very, very deliberate in our decision making. In smaller biotech and pharma.
It makes sense. We’ve talked about this I think a little bit sprinkled throughout in the time that we’ve been chatting but as a as a person who’s now you know, in a really senior leader, stature within your career.
What are some of the best positioned you to advance within industry? So really, I’m thinking now of the audience who’s in mid-career right now not trying to transition into industry but already there and thinking about their trajectory or what’s next for them? Yeah, what do you think? Really best positioned you to sort of climb the climb that you’ve that you have? Yes.
So I think being team oriented, collegial, solution oriented right. I mean, your attitude is basically you. You have to show up with an attitude that shows you’re invested in not just your career, but the success of the program the success of other colleagues and the success of the company.
I think that piece is really critical. You know, we’re, we’re talking basically to an audience of physicians, we can achieve, right? I mean, we’ve made it through all the things we’ve made it through so you’re smart. You can do the job. It’s the how part is how to do the job. It’s how you show up every day.
We’ve talked about network so I don’t think I’ll mention that piece again. And, you know, I think taking risks also, if your point is safe, you can be very, very comfortable doing a great job as a director or senior director and that’s okay too. Maybe you want to stay there, right.
But if you do want to move up, I think you have to raise your hand and frankly, you have to be willing to fail. mean everything doesn’t work out and drug development and, you know, taking that personally and recognizing it doesn’t all fall on your shoulders. The other thing I would say and you touched on this earlier in our discussion. I think as physicians we are very achievement oriented.
And I would say be careful in your mid-career not to be so focused on advancing title. Make sure you’re getting experience I talked with someone recently about this, you know, if you have an opportunity to experience something as a senior director, and then move laterally to a different role, but the experience may be again it’s you know, a phase three trial versus a phase two trial that might be better for your career overall.
So not being so focused on just moving quickly up the ladder, but really thinking about getting a totality of experience that you can fall on. Yeah, I think that’s really stellar advice is one of the things where it can be, it can be really tempting to look really linearly and as you know, in industry is just because people move and change a lot and programs succeed and fail and don’t and there’s sometimes it’s just you’re in the right place at the right time.
But maybe it’s a double-edged sword that you know, suddenly your boss is gone and then they just tap you and you may or may not be ready right to move up. I’ve many colleagues who’ve been in a role. Just a handful of months.
And their manager left for whatever reason, and then suddenly they were the new boss, and they had just gotten into the role they were in, which is both awesome and a great learning opportunity and getting out of your comfort zone.
And I’m not suggesting by the way that people say no to that but I can see how it can be really easy to be thinking just linearly of how do I move up, across and broadly to really, you know, just like anything to get a sense for what you actually really liked the best and where your skills really are and what you want to do more of as your as your career progresses. I mean, there’s no point in getting promoted into something that’s maybe not really your best match.
Right. And I think that’s so important, you know, and the example you gave, if you get tapped, someone thinks you’re capable. So also you know, don’t get in your own way with imposter syndrome. If someone’s giving you the opportunity.
They believe in you. Yeah, so bring that confidence, but also recognize that your career is long, right? I mean, I’m into this for 20 years, and I have many more years of potential work. So don’t focus just on the title piece. Focus on the experience piece.
Yeah, yes. Well, and so I wanted to ask you also about your board director experience with resolute bio. Some years ago, I did an episode about board service as sort of like a next chapter of careers because oftentimes people who you know, have careers into the C suite will then retire from that kind of work but serve on one or more boards.
What has the board service been like for you what brought you to it and what are you learning from it and joining about it, all the things?
Yeah, yes. So um, you’re right. You know, a board role is typically something that you need to be in a C suite role before you’re going to get a board role in most situations. The the primary role of the board is fiduciary duty to the investors to make sure that the management team is doing what they need to be doing.
So it’s a great opportunity. Actually, to continue to work on the strategic growth of a company. I have the opportunity to mentor and be involved in, you know, decision making, not on a day to day basis, and it’s very important that like I’m not responsible for day to day work at the company. But it’s the Chief Medical Officer of the company, for example, has a question. I’m a resource to him.
And so it’s actually it’s a lot of fun. And you really get exposure to perhaps a different development, different therapeutic area, for example. And so it’s something that I have definitely enjoyed. I’ve been on the board now for a couple of years. And it’s just another opportunity to serve patients ultimately.
I love that yes, because it does feel sometimes removed, but that’s really what the entire industry is about. I know that people will wonder this question so I’ll just go ahead and your answer doesn’t need to be specific to Resolute but what is compensation like on the board?
I mean, you’re not really an employee in the in the normal sense of the word, but these are compensated roles. Can you tell the audience about it?
Sure. So it’s nowhere like your full time salary. So you know, it’s five figures, not six figures. There is equity involved. So you know, that’s a potential just like equity at a company. I typically suggest to people to treat equity as paper money.
You know, it’s like Monopoly money until it actually is cash in your hand. So be careful because equity can certainly you know, build and grow but unfortunately in this industry, it is a risky industry and so it can end up not being worth anything. So being on a board is, you know, for most of us not going to be able to support an overall lifestyle on its own, but it is a compensated role.
And the time I spend right is much more limited as compared to the time you spend in a typical FTE or full time role.
Yeah. And you mentioned equity when I think about the startup space, it I mean, one of the one of the goals right of the startup is generally to be acquired, usually not to go commercialize on their own although I suppose that might vary.
Did you find in the various companies you worked for the equity, or the potential of that equity was a large part of compensation. And did that feel risky to you? Or how did that how did you weigh that?
The roles that I have taken, there has always been a sort of market level salary associated with them. The earlier you go, the less than and so I have personally as a choice of my own, not been willing to take on the risk of a company that was so early that the vast majority of the compensation was based on equity.
So, you know, I was looking for roles where there was still enough funding and enough backing of the company that a salary meaning a cash salary, was part of the compensation package.
Certainly there are roles that might be you know, number one or two or three and the company hasn’t raised money yet where you’re really focusing on equity. That’s just a personal choice that like that’s my risk tolerance area. Of I haven’t gotten there.
Yeah, yeah. It’s so interesting. I mean, obviously, I think most people who’ve listened to my podcast and who does it website are aware that that some type of equity stock or options is part of an industry compensation.
I also always view it as Monopoly money, you know, you’ll get it. You might get a might vest you might have moved on before that happens. So I always view it as like with a little asterisk next to it as to whether or not I’m really not relying on that to put my kids through college.
You know, it’ll probably it’ll probably come to me one way or the other. I always try to look at it’s just a part right. It’s just a part and I suppose your own risk tolerance is it’s definitely a personal decision for how that finance works. I we’ve been chatting for a while. I don’t want to keep you too. Much longer.
But I do want to ask you, I think because of your work with industry MD coach, I wonder if there are other either top questions or top myths. You know, I know you and I hear the same kind of themes from people over and over. Is there anything that you want to hit on that that, you know, was a burning question for folks that we haven’t talked about yet today?
I think one I just saw it come up in one of the Facebook forums yesterday, I think that continues to be perpetuated is you know, someone says okay, I want to look at transitioning, they go and look at job descriptions.
And they see the, you know, company is saying must have five years must have three years and people sort of throw their hands in the air and say, Well, how can I get a job? I don’t have experience well.
You know, that job description is aspirational. The company wants someone with experience, but I typically recommend to people if it’s associate or director level, and it anything less than three to five years. Those are the jobs you should be applying for. Just for the part that’s asking for the experience.
Remembered we do have experience as a physician you have a lot of experience. So that’s one I wish we could really get physicians to see past Yeah, and again, it’s some risk-taking behavior that maybe as physicians, we just haven’t been socialized to understand. But I’d love to bust that myth and stop seeing that one. Absolutely.
Absolutely. I see that all the time. And, you know, certainly I mean, especially for an associate director, if you’ve been an associate director for three to five years. You are for sure. Ready for promotion, not ready to do job. You’re ready for a different job. So absolutely aspirational. I think the same is true for the specialty.
I mean, yes, for a given job. Sometimes they really, really do want a specialist in that specialty, but for many jobs, I mean just for the job market broadly. Your specialty is not a limiting factor and I hear this especially around peds. So great to have you on the show. Yeah, trick specialist or pediatric generalist. I feel like that that entire group of our colleagues will say there’s nothing out there for me in in peds.
And yet, when we get on my, my network monthly calls of the group that I run, I think 50% of our folks are pediatric something or another you know, and that’s not what they’re working in. Today. And it’s I mean, I obviously haven’t looked at all the debts you’ve worked on your entire career long but are they all pediatric endocrine assets or not at all?
Not at all. I mean, my last role I was working in, neuromuscular Duchenne muscular dystrophy and myotonic dystrophy, right. So what I say to people is okay, just because I’m a pediatric endocrinologist, I still understand a lot about adult endocrinology as well. yourself as an anesthesiologist. Think about all the training and systems this.
And so I think, again, as physicians, we have to, we have to sort of open up the blinders and, you know, kind of view ourselves much differently than just the specialty we’re in because it go through medical school, we did go through residency, where we learned a vast set of skills and standing of various systems.
So this is something that we’re imposing upon ourselves. The industry is not imposing this on us.
Absolutely. I think if anything, you know, it’s interesting because I think about what you said when I asked you what positions you for success and you didn’t say anything about a degree or your research experience or any particular knowledge you said it was your attitude, right? And it’s so soft skill, it really is.
I mean, we’re hired into industry, because we have a lot of scientific knowledge, but really for how we think and how we evaluate, and how we can go out and learn and engage with other physicians as peers. I mean, anyone can do that from any specialty.
It really it really is about those sort of soft and transferable skills, which I know people roll their eyes and think it’s hokey when we say that, but it is right.
Right. I mean, you know, I remind physicians that they have much more education than many people working in industry. Not all there are plenty of PhDs and such but, you know, if you think about it, we need to give ourselves more credit.
Yes, yes. We now have to start with that confidence of I am well educated, well trained, and I bring a lot of experience to an industry role.
I love it. That’s a mantra to say in the mirror every day, “I’m well educated and well trained and I bring a lot” before we before we wrap this up. I know people are gonna want to be in touch with you and learn more about what you do at industry MD coach you want to take just a quick minute to let people know how to find you and what they could reach out to you for sure.
So my website, www.industrymdcoach.com. Lots of free information there. I’ve published a blog posts for years now every week, so tons of information, podcasts like this that I’ve been on, people can find those recordings.
So I coach people on a one on one basis, or it’s really anything they need right resume work. Interview Preparation, figuring out what jobs to apply for. I also have an online course that’s more self directed. So lots of opportunities to work with me and have me to do discovery calls with folks to understand what they need and see if I’m the right fit. Fantastic.
Thank you so much. So, nerve, buddy. Thank you for being on the show today. Really appreciate you sharing all of your knowledge and insight with the audience today.
Sure, thank you again for having me, Marjorie.
Before you go, please leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, share and subscribe to this podcast. Your support makes all the difference and it truly helps this information reach someone who may really need it. Until next time, thanks for listening.
