Bad things happen in medicine. For too long, many physicians have felt alone and unsupported when – despite their best efforts – patients have a bad outcome. It’s a reason some leave the profession entirely. But this story will inspire you, and show an example of how this physician turned personal hardship into a new professional path.

In this episode of The Career Rx we’ll discuss:

  • How tragedy led to the creation of a valuable physician resource
  • Learning the niche and meeting the needs
  • Shifting from a side gig to a full time professional calling

Today’s special guest is Dr. Stacia Dearmin, a coach, a speaker and a consultant who provides support to physicians who have experienced adverse events or malpractice litigation. Listen as she shares the devastating event that changed her life, and her professional calling, forever.

By the end of this uplifting episode, you’ll know that you can make something good out of your darkest times.

In this Episode:

[2:00] Dr. Stacia Dearmin’s story – how it all started
[7:00] Realizing the need for education around physician malpractice lawsuits
[12:15] From academics to public speaking and online courses
[15:40] Stacia’s experience in The Branding Rx AND The Speaking Rx course
[18:00] It’s okay if success doesn’t happen overnight
[24:10] The evolution from a side project to a full profession
[32:00] Keep yourself motivated with this one mindset shift

Links and Resources:

Dr. Stacia’s resources

Use code “CAREERRX” for 10% off “Deposition Magic.”



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More for you:

The Once-a-Year Event!

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The Social Rx


The Branding Rx 18 hours of CME, mastering digital strategies for advancing your career, building your business, and growing your professional brand

The Speaking Rx learn the business of professional public speaking to establish yourself as a thought leader you are, and get paid for your speaking expertise

Industry Insider – learn exactly how to land a rewarding nonclinical career without a new degree, connections on the inside, prior experience, or a pay cut

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TRANSCRIPT: Episode 71 – Healing from Medical Malpractice and Adverse Events with Dr. Stacia Dearmin

Hey there, you’re listening to The Career Rx podcast. I’m your host, Marjorie Stiegler. In this show, we tackle the important things they don’t teach you in medical school. Like how to treat your career, like the business, it really is, with strategies to accelerate the kind of success that you want. Because you deserve a career you love, and a career that loves you back. Are you ready? Let’s get into it.

So welcome, everybody, again to another episode of the career prescription, I am extremely thrilled that today I have a special guest on the show, Dr. Stacia Dearmin, bringing Stacia on the show today to talk with you because as you know, one of my main goals in The Career Rx is to be sure that my physician audience knows that really the the sky’s the limit, or maybe there are no limits in terms of how you can make an important and meaningful difference in the world as a physician. And so I’m always on the lookout for people who have done things a little bit outside the box and yet, you know, so that it can inspire you. I’ve known Stacia for some time now. Stacia is the founder of thrive. And she’s a coach, a speaker and a consultant in the space of providing support to physicians who have experienced adverse events or malpractice litigation. So if this hasn’t happened to you, yet, it maybe will so it should be on your radar if you’re a physician or healthcare professional listening to my show, and I think you’re gonna learn a lot from meeting Stacia.

Stacia. Thanks for being on program. Thank you so much for having me. And for all those kind words. Wonderful, wonderful to see you. I gave a quick intro about you. But will you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself? Your maybe your clinical background and a little bit, maybe more eloquently what you do today?

Yeah, sure. So my background as a physician, clinically speaking, is in the world of pediatrics, and most especially in the realm of pediatric emergency medicine. I spent more than 20 years in that domain and truly have loved that part of my life. But I now find myself moving into supporting colleagues, physicians, nurse practitioners, sometimes nurses, in relation to as you said, hard patient outcomes and malpractice litigation. And that transition has been a very sort of organic one for me, very interesting. And, and I love what I’m doing. I am teaching through public speaking, coaching one on one, and doing some consulting as well. It’s just very interesting work.

That’s fantastic. So pediatric emergency medicine. I want to ask you a little bit about sort of what planted the seed for you to be so interested in adverse events or malpractice litigation? Is that something you feel like you can share? Sure, yeah. Yeah, I definitely came into this work with Thrive as a result of really life changing personal experience that occurred for me all the way back in the spring of 2012. So nine years ago now, I was in the midst of working in the pediatric emergency department where I worked at that time, saw a young lady, an older adolescent young lady on a Friday afternoon, took care of her over the course of the afternoon. And by the time the end of the day rolled around, she and I had concluded that it was safe for her to go home. I discharged her home.

And the next day Saturday came back to work at 5pm for the evening shift. Not long after I got to work, I was approached by a specialist from another part of the hospital who came to tell me that one of my patients was now in the ICU. And long and the short of it was that this young woman who I had discharged on Friday afternoon, arrested at home on Saturday. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow is right. I was devastated. You know, like most physicians, I found my way into clinical medicine because I care about people. And I think like most people in pediatrics, I really love babies, children and young people and I was really crushed.

I have often said that I can recall having sort of an out of body feeling when I got that news, kind of like the feeling I’ve gotten when I’ve learned someone I love has died. And that moment was the beginning of a long process for me, a struggle around what I might have done differently for her. Whether I did anything wrong. I really don’t understand to this day why she arrested even after an autopsy. It’s not clear to me and a struggle with questions around. What if any responsibility I held for her death? Yes. Because ultimately, she died. Not surprisingly, about a year after that, a lawsuit was filed against me. And that process dragged out over about two and a half years. And ultimately, about three and a half years after she died. I went to trial, I was on trial for three weeks. And yeah… All I can say is “oh, wow. Because it is kind of..” it is kind of Wow, it was Wow, for me, that’s for sure.

In the middle of my trial, really, I don’t know whether by serendipity or divine intervention, I stumbled across a TED talk on the subject of physician suicide. And I would not have listened to that TED talk at the end of a day in the courtroom, except that the title of the TED Talk didn’t give it away, that that’s really what it was about. And when I heard this TED talk, and I learned that something like 400 physicians in the US are dying every year at their own hands. I was so stunned. And I found myself the next morning in the elevator with my lawyers going up to the to the courtroom, telling them about this TED Talk. And I said, I don’t know what all the factors are, that are leading American physicians to die by suicide. But I am certain that what I’m going through has to be one of them.

In then, you know, course of all these events, I had seen other physicians go through lawsuits and close friends I had who had been through it, we all agreed that no one had really taught us about this in medical school or residency, no one had prepared us for this piece of practice, we just felt, you know, adrift, when we were in the midst of it and deeply isolated. So and that, go ahead, go ahead. So this is really, really heavy. So I just want to pause to let everyone kind of digest it.

There’s, there’s two things that as I’m listening to you that are kind of superimposed on each other, I mean, one is just the personal devastation that you carry, and that you have from wondering if you could have or should have done something different. Right. And if there was a need, which even if that’s not a liability issue, it’s we hold ourselves to such a high standard, because we care about people that feeling like we’ve failed, that standard is just internally devastating. Right. And, and in a life is lost, and that’s horrible.

And then the other piece is the additional professional stress. And just what has to be a tremendously difficult experience to go through to the trial of that, because that mean, those are they’re separate. They’re it’s the same type of event, but they’re, they’re separate, and they’re both devastating, I would think in different ways. So we’re.. Yes, you’re I mean, I remember being told as a student, you know, it’s not a matter of, of if you get sued, but when and I feel pretty fortunate, I guess I’m retired now from clinical practice that I have not yet not, not actually been named in a lawsuit. But what it certainly is not anything that I feel like I paid much attention to, and then the gravity of what you’re describing to me right now. It’s just, it feels so heavy and to know that other physicians are going through that feels like a really important place. Where something was needed.

Right, certainly that was what I felt that there was not anything in place that I’m aware of when I was going through this from 2012 to 2015 to support me in the way I might have needed, right? Yeah, if it became apparent to me that there is a big gap. There’s a big gap here. And I think it was at that moment, when I heard that TED talk and kind of had that light bulb go on in the middle of my trial, that I had this sensation that this whole thing has been so painful, and so ugly, and I am going to bring something beautiful out of all this ugly, one way or another. I’m going to bring something beautiful out of it. And so I really view that as a turning point. Yeah, I love that so much.

And I want to I’m just gonna link it to the, you know, kind of broader message in this podcast, right, which is, you know, so many of the people that I come in contact with, through my work are, you know, they’ve reached a breaking point of some sort in their work, it’s perhaps not nearly the same type of gravity that you’re describing. But in all cases, there’s something that they’re disgruntled with their current status quo, and they want to do something different. In the future. I think that experience is not at all uncommon. I feel like as you and I are talking, there’s almost like a duality going on here, which is that you, you’ve identified something through your own personal experience that really needed a void filled, and that you’re ready to fill it. And also that you were feeling low, and that you were going to make something good out of it, right, which is, I think, just a lot of people feel that way, too, who are listening to this show.

So I know, we could probably dedicate an entire several hours to the adverse events and malpractice itself, and to physician suicide, and all that they’re really important issues. So I don’t want to gloss over that too much. But what I think I’d love to hear from you about is, you know, that was a turning point for you. You said I’m gonna make something out of this. And then what happened? Did you act quickly? Or did you kind of just go back to the ER or, or what was going on then for you?

I think I did, you know, in the grand scheme of life, I think I did act pretty quickly. I had a couple of great defense lawyers and developed a particularly a friendly relationship with one of them, and roped him in right off the bat and said, I want to start doing some public speaking on this subject. Will you participate with me? Will you join me? I think he’s kind of a big, football player sized guy. And it felt less intimidating to me to get out and speak about this experience with my defense lawyer along I don’t know why, I guess somebody had heckled me, he could have defended me. I don’t know. My bodyguard, you got it.

But that was the way I can take the first step. So the first step that I took was to prepare a presentation a CME presentation for the members of my division at the Children’s Hospital where I was then working. And then other folks from the hospital were invited as well. And this lawyer and I gave this two hour presentation together on the personal side of surviving, you know, adverse outcomes, sort of the what some people will call the second victim experience, and then the experience of going through a lawsuit because you’re right, they’re two separate stories that sort of intensify each other when they co occur. Right? But they are two separate stories.

So we gave that presentation. And the experience I had there was that by the end of the presentation, a member of the department where I work, where I worked, was in tears. And it was clear that people I was working with had been deeply impacted by this. Were being deeply impacted by it. Having that response come from that group, just said to me, no, this really is needed. You’re not imagining this, right?

So from there, I continued to seek out opportunities to do public speaking. And after about a year, a year and a half, maybe of public speaking, I started to realize, you know, I’m not going to be able to reach all the people I want to reach through public speaking. So I started blogging, I created a website, started to post, maybe every two weeks or so on every aspect of these two topics of our experience of adverse outcomes and malpractice litigation. In beginning to blog, I opened myself up to people reaching out to me via email, right? And they’re reaching out to me eventually made it clear to me that the time when they were most likely to look for my assistance was right before their deposition.

So that taught me okay, people need education around deposition. So at that point, I created my online CME course for people going through a lawsuit and preparing for a deposition. And now I do some consulting with law firms and am preparing to lead my first retreat this August in conjunction with the Institute for Physician Wellness. So it’s really been a super super organic process where at each step, I would take a baby step and whatever resonated or whatever feedback came back to me; I really tried to allow that to lead me into the next step because I really didn’t know where to begin or how to make this be successful. Right? Yes.

Well and let’s. So when you and I first met, yeah, we meet in in the Speaking Rx course. Branding Rx now I can’t remember. So I took both of those. And I think I took Speaking Rx first person, okay, so for those who have, who are listening, so those are, those are both courses of mine, Speaking Rx is on the business of public speaking, which Sasha is doing, obviously, and the Branding Rx is on professional branding, which is also a CME course. And one of the keys about professional branding, which Stacia has just sort of alluded to here is, you know, figuring out when somebody needs like how, you know, if somebody doesn’t know they need you until they have already gone through an experience similar to what you’ve just described, then you can’t help them or you’re too late to help them.

And so one of the questions that I remember us tackling at least a little bit in this course for you was, you know, how how to reach people, so that they will know you exist and can utilize something, you know, at the right time, whether it is well in advance, or it sounds like what you’ve just described is really zeroing in on, you know, people need some help right before the deposition. And so they need to be aware of you before they are deposed, so that they can activate that. So that’s really fantastic. Because I do recall you talking about some of the challenges there, in particular for this one, which is people don’t really know they need this until they are really suffering. Right.

Right. And they have no idea where to begin to look for it, I think. Right? Right. But yeah, you out there with your blog, and being a frequent guests on many podcasts, including mines, and thank you, and having your course and being active on social media. And now I feel like you know, over time, right, there’s always a long game. It’s not anything that happens quite as virally as we all hope. But over time, I think you’re quite well known. And, and probably one of the most, you know, flagship people in this area. Assuming there are other colleagues out there in your space, I’m sure there must be some, but I think you’ve really become quite well known, I think, in online physician circles for this work, which is so important, because then people that you don’t know, can refer you you know, their colleagues to your work. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. can say, “Oh, go look here.” Yeah, yeah, that’s right. That’s right. And I think something that’s worth mentioning to your listeners, is that that does not happen overnight. It doesn’t, yeah, and that’s okay. If it’s not happening overnight, just keep working at it. I really view it as I am not growing like a, I don’t know, a little radish here that’s going to grow to maturity in three weeks. I’m trying to grow a giant Redwood, right? And a giant Redwood starts from a tiny seedling too, but it’s gonna take a long time to be a great big giant Redwood.

Yeah, I mean that it’s so important. Because I think in the modern day, we’re also sort of conditioned to have our super quick result. And I’m, maybe I’m old school, but I’m absolutely of the mindset that the things that grow organically, in an iterative way, are the best, because they really serve the right person. I can imagine, for example, if you were to flood, Facebook with a lot of ads, you could probably get a bunch of traffic to your website, people would be interested for whether or not they actually need what you have, or they needed it in the way that you give it as a whole different question. And so you’ve done the work to make sure that you really understand what people need and when they need it. And that’s, it’s that understanding the ads you can do anytime it’s standing that takes the time to grow and to be really, really deeply connected to in the right way. And I think it’s clear from your success that you are.

Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, well, I’m sure they’re still understanding to come, right? Always. Oh, there’s that too, that it’s never it’s always a work in progress. Yeah, I know. It’s a work in progress. So tell me… Are you still practicing clinically? Are you still in the ER? I am not right now. I last practiced in the ER about 10 months ago. And then in the midst of the pandemic, I felt that my parents needed my support. So, took a little hiatus from clinical medicine and moved, picked up and moved across the country to be of support to two of the people I love the most. And saw okay, maybe life is calling me to really turn my attention to what I’m doing with Thrive because before that I was practicing full time and working on Thrive on the side. And as Thrive grew, that became less, that arrangement became less compatible with my well being as a whole person. Right? Yeah.

So you tack on a thriving side gig on top of your sort of regular day job, if you would. And that just became, you know, instead of filling your cup, you were feeling depleted? You know, I was feeling depleted, yes, I was feeling depleted. And just, you know, that feeling when you’ve got too many balls in the air, and you feel like you’re not able to do all the things you want to do as well as you want to do them. Right. One adjustment to make is to loosen up a little and do a few things less well and not worry about it. But at some point, it’s helpful to rebalance things.

So..absolutely. So I think it was a good opportunity. I think it was life calling me to move into a new phase. And whether I’ll return to clinical medicine, I think the jury’s still out on that. Oh, no. Okay, good. Yeah, that’s exciting. And so in the past 10 months or maybe shorter, while you’ve been sort of digesting this, and of course skincare, your parents. What Tell me about some of the changes that you’ve made in your business, or in the way that you’ve approached your business to sort of go all in on that… is it not a side gig anymore?

Right? Well, I would say a few things. Of course, in the midst of COVID public speaking has been a little bit on the backburner for most of us, I think could do public speaking, I love doing public speaking. But that’s been a little bit on hold. I also do this coaching work. And this provided me with an excellent opportunity to further my training as a coach, I’d previously completed a Gestalt training program and then in this last 10 months have done an additional coach training program. And I’m on the brink of certification by the International Coaching Federation.

So that was one way to put time into the business that I think will pay off in the long run for my clients as well as for the business. What else? I think some things life has brought to me. So I was interviewed by a podcaster last September or so. And that really, by serendipity led to a connection with another physician who has a role to play with a large law firm. So that brought me into consulting inside the world of a large law firm, and then further to consulting with a company that works in the realm of healthcare quality, patient safety, and the well being of the healthcare workforce. That’s fantastic. So I’ve been doing some very interesting consulting work very much from this vantage point of a person with a special interest in the well being of physicians and other healthcare professionals after they’ve encountered bad outcomes and are facing malpractice litigation.

One thing about what you’re saying that I think is so noteworthy, if I can, I’ll just editorialize quick second, go right ahead. I know when you and I first met when you were taking the courses with me, and when you were first thinking about doing something you described, you’re thinking about public speaking, right, and you wanted to help other people who are going through similar situation. But then what you just described right now in terms of consulting with healthcare organizations and law firms is, it’s just a totally different look. It’s possibly having even more impact on an even bigger scale than you had intended in the first place.

And it looks different than maybe what first popped readily to mind of here’s how I can help in this way. But it is, it’s a progression. And I don’t know what’s the moral of that story? I just, it’s so important for people to think about that. You know, you don’t have to have it all figured out to get started. Yes, well, it helps to have an idea of where you want to go. And the most important thing is to start going, you know, with some intentionality.

Yes, I think that is the moral of the story that you’ve got to start taking baby steps, right? Is it throw, you said walk confidently in the direction of your dreams, right? You just have to start taking those baby steps and be attentive to what emerges around you as you do. And at least my experience has been that it is quite surprising what the universe will send back your way. If you’re willing to just start taking the baby steps right? Yes. Now, I wouldn’t encourage people myself, I wouldn’t encourage people to take ridiculous and undue risks that involve the entirety of their life savings or something like that. That’s not what I’ve done at all, right? It’s actually been a slow, steady process. That hasn’t endangered my welfare in any way, you know, financially or otherwise. Yeah.

It’s just given you that time in that space to grow into that deeper understanding of exactly what the need is needed. Right, in the right way? Yeah, how I can be of service? Yeah. Yes. Right. Is that? Well, that’s exactly what it’s all about is how can we be of service. And I think it’s my opinion anyway, that, you know, it takes another physician, a physician who has been on the end of, or another healthcare professional, who has been on the, you know, the end of you know, your decisions and what you did with your, your mind and your hands impacted a person.

And it went awry, whether it’s your fault or not, oh, I don’t think other people can feel what that feels like. Unless they are a clinician who has been through that. And, and I, I do think that this is not something you know, that that your attorneys can do on their own. But I do think they can they like you plus them makes a really magical combination of subject matter expertise in the truest sense of the word. I mean, that’s my own two cents. So, it’s a compliment to you, but I think it’s an area where, you know, there’s a really it, there’s a very specialized need. This isn’t something that could have existed, I don’t think without that, that right combination and then that calling from that personal experience.

Right, right. Right. Yeah, I think it has been a personal calling, and then also a matter of building up over time, other skills that enable me to live out that calling. So it doesn’t necessarily follow that if you have been through this very hard experience, you’ll know how to support someone through it. Right, right. Yep. Yes, it doesn’t follow that if you’ve had anesthesia, you will know how to give anesthesia. Fair. Absolutely. Everyone thinks so. Right. So pursuing I think, right now, are you speaking to pursuing that coaching certification and so forth? Yes, yeah. And really diving deep into the literature around it, because there is extensive literature, as you know, around how we experience those adverse outcomes, how we recover after those adverse outcomes, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

I think what you’ve said there is also really, that’s an important message for people. I mean, I think, you know, just like, like a parent says, to a little kid, you know, you could be anything, I really think you can, anyone who’s listening right now, I think it can be anything, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that you can be anything without some help, or without some training or without some development of other skills, you might need some gaps filled in in terms of skills or training in order to make it realistic for you to make the kind of pivots that you want to have in your career or in your life.

But I also think that, that help, and that those training those gaps is so readily available, right? It can be accessible to us if we’re just if we’re just committed, right? If you’re committed to yourself to do something, and you’re willing to invest in as you said, not with your entire life savings or, or in a way that endangers you, but with your energy and your time and your thought. And yeah, often with some training. Yeah. Then you are, then you are in a position to be able to really make an impact for others. Yes, yes. Yes.

So I think that’s right. I think that’s right. Yeah. And I would say, you know, to a group of if we’ve got mostly physicians listening, you’re smart people. Yes. You’re good students, you know? As physicians, physicians, by definition are a group who’ve been blessed with greater than average brain power, right? We can learn new skills, we can learn new systems and, and apply our creativity to problems that need a solution.

I think so. I mean, I, you know, I think anybody… when people come to me, and they’re, you know, a couple years into their work, post training, so they’ve been through medical school, they’ve been through residency training, and they’ve been through at least a little bit else of something. Yeah. I think just by virtue of still being standing there, you have demonstrated that you have an awful lot of skills and an awful lot of resiliency, though people often feel like they have none. I mean, they really, in fact, have a lot and a lot of creative problem solving and a lot of the the things that are less teachable, perhaps right i think everything can be developed, but I think you have developed it in often in medical school and residency and in training is that you know, a lot of the transferable skills are the core competencies that it takes to really think things through, make a big difference, take action, keep learning, and all the all the stuff that we’re talking about today for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Stacia, was there ever a time when you were trying to get something off the ground in this respect, where you sort of felt like, I don’t know if I can like, I don’t know if it’s worth pursuing this. I don’t know if it will be anything I’m thinking of before, probably before you’ve formed Thrive officially, but maybe after, I don’t know, has that or maybe never, ever thought that you had?

I think, well, with regard to Thrive, I knew from the outset that I couldn’t predict where the journey would take me. But I had this very strong sense early on that, you know, I’m certain, for example, and, and I now know that the data demonstrates, I felt certain at the time that there were physicians who would, let’s say, retire 10 years early, in response to an experience like what I had, right? I felt certain. Okay, I’m sure there are people out there for whom that is their response to this experience. And I thought, what if I impact on one of those people? What if in the course of my public speaking, just one physician doesn’t retire 10 years early, and depending on their specialty, they may see greater or smaller numbers of patients in a year. But if they were my specialty, they would see maybe 2500 kids a year. So that’s 25,000 patients that I have indirectly impacted on by impacting on that one physician, right?

So I thought to myself, way back then, if I only influence that one physician, it will have been worth it. It will be worth the effort. Right? So that’s how I keep myself motivated. Have there been times when I thought on this will not generate enough income for me to live on? I thought that it’s turning out that that is not true at this point in time. Yeah. But I did wonder that at one point in time, and I think it was just a matter of continuing to chip away at it patiently over time. Right? Yeah.

I think that’s really, that’s one of the fears, I think that most people have, frankly, when they’re trying to decide whether they can make a clean cut, you know, and actually pursue something different in their primetime professional activity is, will this pay the bills? And that’s a very practical concern. I don’t want to minimize the importance of it either. But the service and the contribution and the impacting of lives on that macro scale that you just described, is absolutely worth it. It’s absolutely needed. And I think because you’re doing it, everything else will fall into place. Right? You will be supported. Yeah, something that people need, you will be able to make your own ends meet as well. Right, right. Yes, I think so.

Well, it’s just so powerful. What a great example really of, you know, starting from a point where you were really personally affected in a negative way. And truly growing something that is beautiful, out of something that is helping and making a huge difference in the lives not only of other physicians, but also of their patients. As you pointed out, I just I think this is a remarkable story. I hope it is uplifting and inspiring to people who are listening, thinking about something that feels like a calling to them, that they just have not put in motion.

Stacia tell my listeners how they can find you because obviously many of them will want to. Alright, well probably the easiest place to start is at my website, And if you go to that website, then you’re going to find easy access to everything to the blog, to the online course, which is called Deposition Magic. It offers three hour CME so they can use their professional development dollars towards it or write it off as a business expense. And for those who fear interacting with someone outside their legal team, in regards to their case, the fact that it’s entirely streamable means that you can take that course from start to finish and have no direct interaction with me whatsoever.

And then there’s access to the one on one coaching that I do, which is very much designed on an individual basis. And then last of all on the website, there is access to a retreat that I’ll be hosting. It’s a river rafting retreat. And Canyonlands in Utah in August, designed to be a healing retreat for people who’ve been through these hard experiences.

I know that a lot of people will appreciate hearing about that. I will put the links on my show notes, so anybody can just hop on over to my website, if you didn’t catch any of that. Well, thank you so much, Stacia. I really appreciate it’s great to see you. I know that my listeners can’t see you. But as we’re recording this, I can see you. You’re just playing and I think doing amazing, amazing work and it’s just so great to reconnect with you. Thanks for being on my show. Absolutely. It’s wonderful to talk with you. Thanks for having me.

Before you go, please review, share and subscribe to this podcast. Your support makes all the difference and it truly helps this information reach someone who may really need it. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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